Thank you for helping to clarify.
I wonder if perhaps part of our basic disagreement is this:
I don't view 'Atheism' as a thing. The name, the very concept, exists only in opposition to theisms. So while I agree that it is helpful to consider what an atheistic perspective requires of people, I don't think it is really *possible* to do so without comparison to anything else... precisely because I believe there as many ways to be atheist as there are to be human, and the concept wouldn't exist if it weren't for 'something else': namely, religion.
So I fundamentally disagree with comments like "atheists are supposed to be thinkers". The only thing atheists are supposed to be is lacking belief in a supernatural power. Indeed, I was atheist as a fourth-grader. All babies are atheists. Any child raised without religion is atheist by default- and not because of their superior intellect. That may be why a lot of what I say comes off as anti-religious.
(and btw, I don't perceive you as pro-religious or anti-atheist. I think you have valid criticisms of both 'camps'.)
So, in answer to your main question: I think atheists ask of people that they base their choices, decisions and lives on something other than supernatural fantasies fed to them by their culture. To me this is important because where there is appeal to an invisible, supernatural power, there is no room for discussion. I can imagine fruitful conversations about how to live, what is just,what is fair... but "god says... " is a conversation ender. There is no arguing, no convincing, no room for people to change their minds or their viewpoints. No experience can overcome it... and to the extent that people *do* change their minds (Catholics supporting supporting gay marriage, for instance) they do so by ignoring their religion, not by changing within it.
So "what are people like?" and "how can people be helped to find meaning in life without the promise of an afterlife" seem to me to be valid questions, but "do atheists know what they're asking of people" doesn't really.
I don't know if i've frustrated you further, or made my thoughts clearer. I'd like to know...
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Try not to worry about me and my feelings. Try to focus on presenting an argument. In a discussion, all you can do is to present your ideas as you understand them. You have to count on the other to respond patiently and clearly, regardless of their perceptions of what you've said (and whether those perceptions are right or not).
ReplyDeleteSo whether I get frustrated by your comments or not, I think step 0 is to simply be comfortable with saying what you say, and letting me feel what I feel, good or bad. Trust the other to listen properly, whatever their method is--whether it's to emote and then back off, whether it's to to be cold and rational, etc.
That's my suggestion.